https://wiki.seasteading.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Sconzey&feedformat=atomSeasteading - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T09:31:58ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.31.1https://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php?title=Talk:Defense&diff=3780Talk:Defense2009-02-23T16:09:09Z<p>Sconzey: /* Bad wiki page. */ added link to UN convention on the high seas</p>
<hr />
<div>6.5 Inch Grendel round<br />
<br />
Why this round in particular? It would be more cost effective to use the 5.56 round <br />
or any mass produced round instead. For many seasteaders, budgeting is going to be a necessity,<br />
and spending money on expensive ammo for a marginal advantage in maritime combat seems superfluous.<br />
<br />
== Edited link. ==<br />
<br />
Removed the link to concentration camps. It's often best to include no information in a wiki, rather than bad information/reasoning.<br />
<br />
== Bad wiki page. ==<br />
<br />
While this page has some merits, I believe it seriously needs redoing completely. <br />
<br />
It simply does not relate well with the project. <br />
<br />
I could volunteer to do this in a month or so after a months vacation. <br />
<br />
- NoDachi<br />
<br />
I concurr to an extent. I would argue that for seasteading to eventually produce viable independent micro-nations, methods for enforcing property rights must be discussed. However, I would argue that there's far too much in this article, and a lot of it is very specific. I would suggest the creation of a Defense category, that the Defense article summarise the different types of threats seasteads may face and a general discussion of the issues. Discussion of specific threats and specific solutions be moved to separate articles. There's a lot of work here, but it's important because unless seasteads can have ownership enforced, they can never be commercially viable. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 02:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
* Defense is not a major thing being discussed in the community right now, but of course it is of major importance so any information is more than welcome. I'd say there are two or three things we'd need defense against: people on Seasteads (thieves, hijackers, etc), pirates and possibly governments (against the latter, IMHO any weapon would fail except for public opinion). These would make nice seperate articles I think. For none of them I can find a lot of information on the Internet but there are lots of questions to be answered, especially in the legal area. What kind of security measures are taken on cruiseships? Does US or Panamese law allow security to carry a gun? What rights do stowaways have? Can you just shoot pirates? I'd love to see someone answering questions like these. [[User:Joep|Joep]] 03:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
** A lot of the law stuff is covered on wikipedia[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#In_international_law]. From a five-minute skim it'd seem that pirates are considered "enemies of humanity" and any state that encounters them is entitled to try them by that state's own law, without the intervention of another state. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 15:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
** Ah yes, the UN convention on the High Seas is very explicit in the matter[http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/8_1_1958_high_seas.pdf]. Start at Article 14 and read away. The only problem lies in the nature of statehood, as considered by the UN and signatories to the aforementioned convention. This is unlikely to be able to be circumvented through the use of flags of convenience due to Article 21 which states that a ship has to be explicitly authorised by it's Flag State before it can effect piracy-related arrests or seizures. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 16:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)</div>Sconzeyhttps://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php?title=Talk:Defense&diff=3779Talk:Defense2009-02-23T15:59:23Z<p>Sconzey: /* Bad wiki page. */ discussed law of piracy</p>
<hr />
<div>6.5 Inch Grendel round<br />
<br />
Why this round in particular? It would be more cost effective to use the 5.56 round <br />
or any mass produced round instead. For many seasteaders, budgeting is going to be a necessity,<br />
and spending money on expensive ammo for a marginal advantage in maritime combat seems superfluous.<br />
<br />
== Edited link. ==<br />
<br />
Removed the link to concentration camps. It's often best to include no information in a wiki, rather than bad information/reasoning.<br />
<br />
== Bad wiki page. ==<br />
<br />
While this page has some merits, I believe it seriously needs redoing completely. <br />
<br />
It simply does not relate well with the project. <br />
<br />
I could volunteer to do this in a month or so after a months vacation. <br />
<br />
- NoDachi<br />
<br />
I concurr to an extent. I would argue that for seasteading to eventually produce viable independent micro-nations, methods for enforcing property rights must be discussed. However, I would argue that there's far too much in this article, and a lot of it is very specific. I would suggest the creation of a Defense category, that the Defense article summarise the different types of threats seasteads may face and a general discussion of the issues. Discussion of specific threats and specific solutions be moved to separate articles. There's a lot of work here, but it's important because unless seasteads can have ownership enforced, they can never be commercially viable. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 02:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
* Defense is not a major thing being discussed in the community right now, but of course it is of major importance so any information is more than welcome. I'd say there are two or three things we'd need defense against: people on Seasteads (thieves, hijackers, etc), pirates and possibly governments (against the latter, IMHO any weapon would fail except for public opinion). These would make nice seperate articles I think. For none of them I can find a lot of information on the Internet but there are lots of questions to be answered, especially in the legal area. What kind of security measures are taken on cruiseships? Does US or Panamese law allow security to carry a gun? What rights do stowaways have? Can you just shoot pirates? I'd love to see someone answering questions like these. [[User:Joep|Joep]] 03:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
** A lot of the law stuff is covered on wikipedia[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#In_international_law]. From a five-minute skim it'd seem that pirates are considered "enemies of humanity" and any state that encounters them is entitled to try them by that state's own law, without the intervention of another state. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 15:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)</div>Sconzeyhttps://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php?title=Talk:Defense&diff=3733Talk:Defense2009-02-17T02:11:41Z<p>Sconzey: discussed the "bad wiki page" idea</p>
<hr />
<div>6.5 Inch Grendel round<br />
<br />
Why this round in particular? It would be more cost effective to use the 5.56 round <br />
or any mass produced round instead. For many seasteaders, budgeting is going to be a necessity,<br />
and spending money on expensive ammo for a marginal advantage in maritime combat seems superfluous.<br />
<br />
== Edited link. ==<br />
<br />
Removed the link to concentration camps. It's often best to include no information in a wiki, rather than bad information/reasoning.<br />
<br />
== Bad wiki page. ==<br />
<br />
While this page has some merits, I believe it seriously needs redoing completely. <br />
<br />
It simply does not relate well with the project. <br />
<br />
I could volunteer to do this in a month or so after a months vacation. <br />
<br />
- NoDachi<br />
<br />
I concurr to an extent. I would argue that for seasteading to eventually produce viable independent micro-nations, methods for enforcing property rights must be discussed. However, I would argue that there's far too much in this article, and a lot of it is very specific. I would suggest the creation of a Defense category, that the Defense article summarise the different types of threats seasteads may face and a general discussion of the issues. Discussion of specific threats and specific solutions be moved to separate articles. There's a lot of work here, but it's important because unless seasteads can have ownership enforced, they can never be commercially viable. --[[User:Sconzey|Sconzey]] 02:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)</div>Sconzeyhttps://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php?title=Defense&diff=3732Defense2009-02-17T02:01:00Z<p>Sconzey: wrote a couple of introductory paragraphs, and added a few more pertinent sections</p>
<hr />
<div>For as long as some have had plenty and others little, there have been those willing to use force to appropriate the property of others. Throughout the world, Governments have evolved to (among other things) enforce property rights. Out in the open ocean, flying a flag of convenience, a seasteader must take care of themselves and their own.<br />
<br />
The appropriate method of defense depends hugely on what threats a seastead faces: Mutiny, Piracy and Fraud may all be considered threats, but must be dealt with in completely different ways. <br />
<br />
Many issues surrounding threats and a seastead's response to them depend on the politics and ethic of the seastead in question. A pacifistic seastead would react in completely different ways to piracy and mutiny than many others. This article will not, therefore, attempt to adjudicate on "right" and "wrong" responses to various threats.<br />
<br />
Procurement of arms may also present difficulties, and an exploration into the legal issues surrounding large-scale arms purchases needs to be explored.<br />
<br />
==Internal Threats==<br />
===Mutiny===<br />
===Terrorism===<br />
===Biological Invasion===<br />
(infectious diseases, vermin infestation, etc)<br />
==External Threats==<br />
===Piracy===<br />
===Governmental Action===<br />
===Inter-seastead Conflicts===<br />
<br />
==Defense Strategies==<br />
===Agree===<br />
===Pay Extortion===<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Geld Dane Geld]<br />
===Passive Resistance===<br />
<br />
===Active Resistance===<br />
<br />
===Deterrence===<br />
Deterrence could involve hiring a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_defense_agency private defense agency] in combination with or funded by an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression_insurance aggression insurer] to safeguard against or retaliate against aggressors. Presumably, arrangements could be worked out for payment to be made only after a successful counterattack were launched.<br />
<br />
==Defensive Equipment==<br />
<br />
===Less lethal===<br />
<br />
Water cannon<br />
<br />
Tasers<br />
<br />
Microwave emitters<br />
<br />
Sound wave emitters<br />
<br />
Striking weapons - nunchucks, batons, etc<br />
<br />
Incapacitants - Pepper spray, etc<br />
<br />
===Lethal===<br />
====Short Range/Small arms====<br />
<br />
Pistols<br />
Semiautomatic, .40 S&W / 10mm / .45ACP class<br />
<br />
Shotguns - 12 Ga<br />
Pump / Semi / Full<br />
variety of ammunition including beanbag, rubber ball<br />
<br />
====Intermediate Range /Small arms====<br />
<br />
Rifles-<br />
Preferably select fire assault rifles, make and model being dependent on budget. Reliability will be important because it is unlikely that there will be a gunsmith in the early days of seasteading.<br />
<br />
==== Long Range / Small Arms ====<br />
<br />
Machine guns<br />
<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M249_SAW M249] Ideally modified to fire the 6.5 Grendel round<br />
<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M240 M240]<br />
<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning M2HB .50 Caliber ]<br />
<br />
=== Crew served weapons ===<br />
<br />
====Close-range====<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIWS CIWS] Air and close-in point defense<br />
<br />
====Intermediate range, air defense====<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-7_Sea_Sparrow Sea Sparrow] (type)<br />
<br />
====Intermediate range surface defense==== <br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet_AM39 Exocet] (type)<br />
<br />
=== Structural defense mechanisms ===<br />
Partial or complete flooding of selected areas, up to the reversible submersibility of the entire structure<br />
<br />
== Threat surveillance and Detection ==<br />
<br />
Area Radar<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2083 Aerostat radar] (type)<br />
<br />
Active / passive sonar?<br />
<br />
==Training Issues==<br />
<br />
==Individual Equipment and Protection==<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Fire resistant clothing (shirt/trousers or jump/flight suit), gloves, head covering (balaclava), boots<br />
===Load carrying equipment===<br />
Vest with integrated pouches for ammo, water, first aid kit, etc. With armor and/or flotation <br />
<br />
Protective Mask [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCU-2/P_Protective_Mask MCU-2/P] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM50_JSGPM JSGPM] or better<br />
<br />
Night vision devices<br />
<br />
===Armor===<br />
Body armor<br />
<br />
Helmet with face shield, integrated communications and hearing protection<br />
<br />
== Unconventional weapons ==<br />
=== EMP ===<br />
=== directed microwave emitters ===<br />
=== metalstorm / flechettes ===<br />
in general, use the stuff that the big militaries paid to have developed, and then couldn't use because of the bureaucracy. see steyr ACR for an example.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Defense]]<br />
<br />
{{Infrastructure}}</div>Sconzey